I had a cheap pair (like $45 cheap) of Gortex and leather palmed gloves for 7 years. They didn’t have a liner and I never once treated the leather, but they were warm and they were broke in but sadly they needed to go. When I tried these on at the Backcountry, I loved them. They felt like they were already broke in and after using a couple times they proved to be very warm. I was a little worried about how soft the leather was, especially for the price. After a phone call to my gear head and a heavy wax treatment, I think they’ll be good. Not going to lie, It wasn’t fun, but I can handle it once or twice a year. I also had a couple other concerns.....they’re not Gortex and they have liners. I knew most upper end gloves have liners these days but I thought everything was Gortex?! Ive used these skiing twice and on a 4 day snowmobiling trip. While I wouldn’t recommend them for a dedicated snowmobile glove, they did a great job. I never once had a waterproof problem, they stayed dry all day long and my hands stayed very warm even when taking them on and off a lot throughout the day. This is the first glove I can give 5 stars to concerning the liner setup....they’re succured in with some Velcro and never once displaced while taking on and off, fingers even stayed in place. After the 4 day trip I took liners out to air out and they went back in very easy and felt great. Ive also never had the secure wrist strap so your glove doesn’t fall off the lift while messing with your phone, a nice feature. If the straps bug you, they’re simple to remove. Im very happy with how they fit right out of the package, the warmth, the liners, and how they come up just right on the wrist and cinch easy to keep the pow out. I was in between sizes, 9 fit perfectly snug, so I went with the 10 and im glad I did...... Im 5’8”, 135lbs. So far worth the money!