I think the Bacon is far more versatile than the ObSETHed. It's great in the POW but it also tears up the groomers and terrain park. It's my quiver of one. Great in the terrain park on rails and jumps, awesome for POW shreddin with plenty of width for float and good at straight lining big mountain lines. It has in my opinion the perfect flex, soft enough for the POW yet stiff enough for the groomers and straight lining big lines.I agree, I think the bacon blows the obseth away as a overall ski, I also use it as my one ski quiver, in powder, super stable in the park and lands it's self on jumps and loves to carve on groomers, very nimble for its size, why bother looking else where.

The lizzies are super soft, the line bacons are more like the s6's but also softer and more playful.

these ski's are huge, i would go with the 175, the 185 would be to much ski to throw around IMO.

Oh yea----- no problem ----- my local shop bent my 100mm brake to fit on a 115mm waist.

I think line is sold out of them or is having a hard time meeting demand.

If you have leg problems you sould be riding a soft ski. the AR6 is softer then the foil and blows it away, you won,t get that chatter on hard snow that you do with the foil, another ski you might want to look at is the line invader or anthem both are real soft ski's but not as versital as the AR6, the armada arv is a little fatter then the ar6 but is also a little softer it's also a great allmountain ski.

Yes they do, imo not as much as the bacons, If you want a less turney powder ski how about the 4frnt ehp or vct. the obseth's are fun all over the mountain and if you loved the 189's you will also love the 179's they ski the same you just won't have to work as hard with them, they are longer then the bacon's because k2's twins all run about 5cm longer then they say, so that might help with the float as well. Both ski's are fun but i think the bacon's are more energetic. This has been a odd winter so far in the sierras also , it dumps 3-4ft. and then gets real warm for 1 or 2weeks and then dumps again and gets warm again, very odd. oh well at least their is snow.

I think you kind of missed the point of the design of the bacon, It is ment to ride like a snowboard or surfboard in powder with that quick turning radius and snappiness, it is ment to be fun playful, toss it around ski, not a charging big mountain ski. At your size you are getting at the max size for them unless you mount them -2 or 3 from rec. The recomended mounting point is farther foreward then you would see on a typical powder ski. If you mount at rec or foreward you do have to lean back a little or they tend to dive some, maybe because of the early taper. The obseth will do better in crud because of the slight rocker to them and you can charge a little harder with them but overall IMHO i think the bacon is a funner ski.

I would go rossie--- fatter, quicker, one of the best non-rockered powder skis out there and just a real fun ski all over the mountain not just in pow.

I don,t see why not, they are fairly light for there size and with the early taper they would be great, and the fact that they are quick for there size.

If you look over at newschoolers website there is a bunch of talk about the suspects falling apart after 10 to 15 days of park use. I would steer clear of them, the ar6 is a way better ski. I would go for them.

they will be fine, I use them on a 115 waist ski.

I'm pretty sure it's the stance back in mm's is 81 for the 186, 77 for 179, 74 for the 172, and 70 for the 165.The 100 is a directional twin so the mounting point is farther back then you would expect on a twin.

Not really, in a twin tip freeride/powder ski if your good they are about just right for your ht. if you feel you need to go shorter line prophet 100 in a 172, k2 obseth in 169 or 4frnt vct in 168. All would do the same job as the lib.

Nope, not at all. After a while it's less noticeable because the weaker cover is chipped away leaving the harder materials. Both my K2 skis are like this, but after 2 years on my PE's, they have no performance issues, at least not from the topsheet.A trick to help with chipping is to file or sand the top edges of your skis at a 45% angle so when they hit together they are not as sharp so they chip less, it makes a huge difference.

no the 178 sould be about right for you.

the bacons are way under rated on groomers, in all honesty they carve very well on groomers and only start to loose an edge and chatter when it is icey but more then make up for it when in the powder where they float like a dream, flex wise they are similar to the obseth, maybe a tad softer.

They would be fine for you, they measure out at 179mm and with the early taper i feel that they ski about like about a 175mm or so ski. i,m 5'7" and use them as my all mountain. I would prob. recomend that you mount them at +2 or 3cm from the mounting line because your kind of light.

The czar,obseth and goats are similar, the bacons are fatter and softer then the other three and more of a playful powder ski then a big mountain charger. If you love softer playful skis the bacon is the best, it also just happens to carve very well on groomers and does real well in the crud, its my all-mountain ski.

The bacon is the softest of the 3 and would be noodles compared to your legends, its more of a playful powder ski. The prophet 130 is a more directional powder ski and the softest of the prophet line, it's pretty quick for its size yet you can charge really hard on them and carves pretty well for a fat ski. I have not skied the fatypus but would love to try the fattest one i can't remember its name. If you charge real hard the bacon would be to soft and small but the 130 would serve you well.

go 90

Well they are a center mount ski, so i don't know how that would work tele.

If you going with a 172 say your 5'9 or 5'11 and center it go with a 180 because of what I heard with true center skis is they feel too short in the front if there your size my suggestion is center but go a little bigger.I think you guys are missing the point, this a symetrical ski it has to be center mounted, if you want it to ride longer you buy it longer and mount at center, if you change the mounting point it won,t ski as intended. YOU CAN'T go back from rec.

I think you will be fine, i'm 175lbs. and have them at +2 from rec. for your size i would go at rec. or back 1cm or 2cm from rec. and they will float just fine. The rec. midsole is 6cm (2 1/4") back from center a lot of people go 1cm or 2cm back from there if there biggger or if just using them as powder boards, i went +2 because i use them as my all mountain ski including park.

The arv are midsoft in flex so you will get chatter at high speeds on hardpack/icey conditions like all softer skis but will make up for it in softer snow and powder, they are a super fun ski. The 185 will feel fairly tru to length for a twin but are real easy to ski depending on what brand your 175's were the arv's might feel a little longer.

line invader, you can't get any softer then that ski.

This is a more advanced ski, i would not rec. unless your advanced intermidate at best. If you want a twintip the line invader is easy to ski in a 171 or the rossie S2 in about the same size. a little bit stiffer ski would be the fischer addict or last years scratch getto from rossie.

I would assume since they are symetrical that the mounting point is at center and genraly you can't change that without messing up how the ski is intended to work. but a +5 means 5cm foreward of factory rec. mounting line.

After my surgery, I went down in ski length by roughly 10cm for two winters. Now that my knee is up to strength, I've been back to my regular sizes. Obviously, this situation is a personal preference at its finest. But if you're even questioning this, shouldn't you be fixing that knee...?if i had a blown knee i would chose a softer ski then the prophet 100 to make it easy on it, a trick us older guys use after we have worn them out.

these would be a great choice for that ski.

This is a symetrical ski and MENT to be center mounted, if you mount any different it will totally change the way it ski's i do not reccomend that.

shoot an e-mail over to nordica, they sould get back to you pretty quick. Or just read down to the next question to answer your question.

Not really comparible, the prophet 100 and goats are comparible, but not the bacon's. The bacon' are a fat, mid soft powder ski that happen to carve very well on groomers but start to lose they edge when it gets real hard or icey, but shine when the snow starts falling again, but do bust crud pretty well, the prophet will be the best on hard snow and ice because of the metal in it yet is about the same as the goat in powder.

the prophets blow the fury off the mountain , you will feel like a kid in a candy store when you get them in powder, they ski much smoother without all the chatter on hardpack.

you prob. sould have gone 179mm but the 172 will be ok, mount on rec. since you got the 172's if you go foreward it may make them ski to short.

you could use either the 178mm or if you are an expert more up to the 185mm.

griffons are ok if your light, heavy riders or super aggressive riders are breaking the toe piece, get the 90mm brake it will bend out to fit.

the pandora is a very soft powder ski based off the line elizabeth which is a fat park/powder ski for smaller riders. the kiku is stiffer and would handle speed better, but the pandora is a much funner very quick around ski that carves well yet floats great for light riders.

The line prophet 90 in a 179 or 4frnt msp in a 181 are two of the best east coast ski's for everything.

I just got a pair of these. I would say they ski very true to their size. At this point they might be just a touch big for you, but if you're still growing they won't be for long. They are a pretty money ski and can really handle it all. As far as traditional camber, traditional sidecut powder oriented skis, I would say this is one of the best out there.These skis are very easy to ski, one of the best turning fat skis out there and i feel they ski short because of the early taper, i'm 5'-7" and have them at +2 from reccomended, you won't have any problem with them, if your that light go + 3 or 4 from rec. and have a blast. they only measure out at about 179mm.

No they don,t-- they are the same ski as last years steeze, a great ski that floats well with out rocker.

You might be on the upper end of the weight/height for the bacons unless you mount at recommended (6cm) back from center or go another 1cm back from there. then they sould be fine with no tip diving. I weigh 175 lbs. and have them at 4cm back from tru center +2 from recommended and they float great there with no dive. go bacon over goats, much quicker ski.

same ski just slightly different gothic graphics.

Prophet 100 in a 186 or line mothership in either size if you want a twin. the dynastar in a flat tail. these will suffice.

powder skied out!! thats when you start going deeper into the tree,s to find more or start hiking, they both handle it fairly well for softer skis, the bacons have the early taper to help them hookless as the k2's have slight rocker to help them bust it, the czar works the best in this situation because of the more pronounced rocker to them.

No, I personally feel that the bacon feels like a softer version of the s6 but with a smoother/ livelier feel to it, it has different geometry to the side cut then the prophet and what i like about is that you can really open up your turns like a gs ski or snap them quickly if you need to, and for some odd reason they seam to feel no fatter then a 100mm ski underfoot, but they are a fat ski and do have some weight to them,prob. about the same as the 179 obseth but i feel its quicker. You sould try and demo the czar, it is a fairly light ski and would make a great setup, its strange that it hasn't caught on yet, but wait till next year.

This is a very popular powder ski that just happens to do well on groomers also it would be a great choice for you, as for size i would prob. go 183 as they tend to ski short. have fun.

Not even comparible, the s6 {excellent ski} is 18mm fatter and holds a great edge on softer snow but hates ice and is ok on hardpack but will eat crud and powder all day. Take a look at the line prophet 100, with the metal top cap it holds a great edge on hardpack yet with 100mm under foot it floats well in powder, The volkl is a great ski but lacks a little when the snow gets deep and thats when the s6 starts to shine. you can't compare a powder ski to an all-mountain ski.

The 179cm ObSETHed will ski a whole lot different than your Mantra's because of the added width and the mini rocker (reverse camber). Also, on your sizing, K2 skis in general are measured different than the rest of the industry. A 179 ObSETHed is bigger than a different brand 179. So the 179 ObSETHed and the 182 Czar might be very similar in length. I would really recommend either the ObSETHed or the Czar because of the rockered profile. You will like the rocker in softer snow, and the Rossi S6 is just a regular cambered ski. So unless you want to give up the rocker, stick with the ObSETHed or Czar.As for your experience on the 189's, if you liked the way they skied, despite the length and the heavy feeling, the 179 should give you the same feel, but they will be more nimble, and they will feel lighter. Any ski that is too big (a 189 in your case) is going to feel heavy and it will take more energy out of you to get them to cooperate. In general, the same skis will feel very similar in each of their different sizes, but the ski in your size will feel easier to work with. So like I was saying before, the 179 is going to feel good. In my opinion, you should stick with ObSETHed's because they are so awesome. But I can't really compare against the Czar, because I've never skied it. Keep the questions rolling if you need any more help!Troy,I say go with the Czar for sure. Similar shape with the rocker just in the tip which is a great idea, but the foam core makes it a much lighter ski. I'm debating between the two right now myself. I loved the way the Obsetheds rip, but will by touring with them so leaning towards the Czars.I agree, if you are going for a rockered ski the czar is the better of the two, and if you truly want the obseth at least demo the line bacon first its less hookey in powder and floats better without the rocker plus it skis groomers way better, a very similar flex but much funneir ski.

The TI has metal in the heel to make it stronger.

You won,t notice any performance difference, IMO the griffon/jester crazy is just a hyped-up fad, the jester is a good binding, but the griffon has a lot of plastic in it and now that it is being tested not just talked about is breaking in the toe piece. if you want a salomon binding the sth line is the way to go, def a step-up over the Z line. As for height 99% of the time and people would not notice the difference between bindings if they skied them back to back, and if they did you would be use to it in a run or two. A lot of hype out there is just theory or opinion and does not matter, either you know how to ski or you don,t. And using a griffin or jester binding will not compensate for that. I think one factor people forget about when they talk binding ht. is their boot and the thickness of the footbed and volume will change everything in how a ski performs.

You could ride a reverse camber in 4" and it would feel great, if you already have a all-mountain ski in the ARV then i would ARG for a powder spef. ski. It's awesome.

Honestly, these are so close in dimensions to the PE that I don't think it would be worth it for to to spend money on a ski that will perform the same. They are also not that light weight either, so not much improvement there. I'd look into a different ski. The P.E's are a way better ski, you would be downgrading if you got the scream in's.

These guys will handle it just fine.ESTtoMST speaks the truth!!

No, they are not all that much stiffer then the bacons about a medium flex i would say. The bacons are not as soft as people make them out to be, but they do get a little softer after you put some hours on them. They def. are a fun ski to just play around on (bacons) and are very quick and responsive, you def. can't tell that their 115 underfoot when you ski them.

your to heavy for the px12 in your skiing style, you will break the griffon unless you step up to the jester (more money) i would say STH14, or step up to the px14, but the salomon is lighter. glad to see you based your decision on graphics alone, your like a fish, you see a color you like and attack.

The extremes because of their stiffness are a better all mountain ski for groomers, and yes the ar6 is better in the park, its your choice which is more important to you.

If i was you i would go with something between 100-115 in the waist and maybe with some rocker to them, k2 obseth, salomon czar, moment bibby they all have some rocker to them, for traditional camber skis the prophet 100 in 186 would be ok or even the 130, or rossie s6, if you like soft skis the hellbent in 189 would be a solid choice also take a look at 4frnt ehp.

If your interested in more backcountry use go 183 they measure out at about 179 or so, yes, and i would go marker jester or baron to keep them light.

The flex between them is almost the same, i think the anthems have more pop to them and are more stable off jumps because of the width, but the invader is quicker, if you don't need the width go invader.

My son skis the ar6 as his all-mountain/park ski and loves them, they even do pretty well in the tree's in powder and very stable at speed, the only complaint is that the top edeges chip easy so i would file them at a 45% angle before you ride them, otherwise they are excellent allover the mountain, for your size def. go 181 you might be to heavy for the 176 even tho it would work.

No, stick with the px12 if they work for you, I use the px14 on bacons with no problem at all. have fun on them!!

If your good, i would get the bibby's, they are rockered so they ski shorter then there length, plus super fun skis.

It would be safe to go 176. But if you feel that you could be charging harder in the future or don't mind longer ski's you might get away with the 183's.

No, only symetrical skis a really ment to be center mounted, The factory mounting point is about 6mm back from center, but a lot of guys mount 2mm to 3mm back for better park performance.

The chronic is a park ski that skis very well all mountain due to its stiffness yet still rips the park.

That would be personal opionion, I think they are better, but some people don't. The jester is a good binding, that is lighter and some say give's you better snow feel but pricey. The griffon is a lighter version of the jester with a lot more plastic in it and i am hearing alot stories about the toe and heel piece breaking on them, personally i will stick with LOOK they are tried and tru.

I know k2's twins run long but i don't about their other skis i would guess they would all measure the same way, Twin tips ski short in genral and lines run a little short so it would be a safe bet to go 186 they would prob. feel the same length as your 178's. also mounting spots on twins tend to be more foreward, also making them feel shorter.

It depends on how hard you ride them in the park, Most park skis only last about a year if ridden hard, edges start to blow out and you might get some delam. If you mean by riding them all-mountain in ice and hardpack, they are to soft. take a look at the chronic or suspect or wall for those conditions.

The obseth is about average weight for its class, i would not call it heavy or call it light for it's size, sure you can take it in the park, a lot of kids are riding the hellbent in the park and ripping them, but i def would not call them park skis. I would not say they rail groomers, no ski over 100mm in the waist is going to truly rail groomers, that being said if you are a good skier and can carve a ski on edge it will carve some nice rails for you, but i won't ride them in icey conditions. The vct will ride groomers/hardpack better because its stiffer and maybe be better in crud but that would be a toss-up, neither ski will be better on groomers then your old P.E's because neither is as stiff or as narrow, you are looking for the perfect ski that rails groomers/bumps yet floats well in powder and it does not exist, all skis are going to compromise somewhere, if you go with a fatter powder ski then you have to deal with it on groomers, if you go with a more narrow ski for groomers then you work harder in powder to get it to float, thats why people own quivers of skis, why don't you buy a fatter powder ski now, ride your P.E's on groomers and next year buy a ski to replace your P.E's. for groomers.

because of the rocker k2 does not spec. the same on it as other skis but ican tell you its way quicker then the vct, about the same as the prophet 100, hands down the obseth is better.

Hi henry--- The obseth is a nice ski, it has just a slight rocker in the tip so that it can rise-up in powder/crud yet is still flat under your foot and has a duel radius sidecut so it will still crave/do well on the groomers. as for flex they are the softest of the 3, i would say about the same as bacons or a tad stiffer, but a really nice feel to it, the ski you demoed was probably last years JJ if it was a 188, a backcoutry powder/jib with very little sidecut (around 40meters) thats why it felt sluggish on groomers and bumps, if you go k2 get the 179 they are about 184, also look at the o9 armada JJ a totally different ski then what you skied, A very versitale fat ski but good luck getting ahold of the 185, they have been sold-out for months. The obseth is a really fun ski, if i didn't love my bacons so much i would be riding those or momment bibby pros. good luck and i think there is another round of storms coming at the end of the week, were getting spoiled on just sking powder in my neck of the woods.

Hi henry-- so your up in whistler- lucky, the 90 is stiffer then the 100 by a fair amount, also you were on a 172 and your a big guy, the vct would give a little more float then the 100 because it's softer and has minimal camber to help it float better, but the turn radius is wider so it's not as quick, the 100 has metal in it so it will ski crud/groomers better, i agree the 186 would lose some playfulness for all mountain jibbing around, maybe its time to try a slightly rockered ski to get the float yet still ski groomers the two best out there in that waist size would be the k2 obseth in 179 or the salomon czar in 182 or maybe it's 184 i can,t remember, see if you can demo those two ski's. if they don't work for you you will maybe have to comprivise and get a fatter ski. also look at the rossie s6 its this years sratch steeze it's around 110 in the waist but a real fun all around ski.

go 179, they run a little long so they will be about 183, they are about average in weight for a ski in this width. they have a great flex.

The goats as you already know are very popular every one and there mother skis them. personally i think there are way better skis for the money, the obseths are one of them, softer, better flex and slightly rockered for better powder performance, not to mention sick graphics. another choice is the line prophet 100, it blows the goat off the mountain and also has sick graphics. a much quicker/livlier ski. As for bindings the jesters would be awesome on any powder ski.

The prophets are just as stable as the volkls but will be WAY better in powder and off-piste, one of the best all-mountain skis you can get as long as you don't ski much park/freeride jibbing, belive it or not i am hearing about guys using the prophet 90 for racing and winning, thats how good they carve. if you ski more groomers go 90 if you want to get into more powder go 100. Another ski you might want to check-out is the 4frnt msp, IMO the best on-piste twin you can buy.

They will work, but the brake is way wider then what you need, maybe you could get a narrow brake.

The reason your'e sinking in powder is your skis are to short,your pretty light so you could get by with the 172 but you sould be on 179's. these in a 172 would ski like about a 168, they are fatter, but very quick skis. the lightest binding for your weight would be the marker griffons. The only other ski i can think of thats mid-fat and short would be the 4frnt vct, i think they make it in a 168. a another ski you might look at is the line elizibeth, its a short powder/park ski that does very well as an all-mountain ski for lighter skiers.

no its not, thats why its so cheap.

The stock brake is 100mm but will fit up 105mm, after that you can start bending.

the k2's are similer to the p.e. and will give you better edge hold for back east conditions and better park performance.

If you mean by co. conditions soft snow, yes-----If you mean a good all-mountain ski for co, no-------this is primarely a fat park ski, that will transition to soft snow groomers and some b.c. jibbing-----if your looking for a more all-mountain jib ski that you can take in the park,go with the line blend instead.

The obseths are more versitil you could ski them on groomers, yet float really well in pow due to the slight rocker. the hellbents are really soft and float amazing in pow but are not the best for busting crud. they are manigible on groomers but you have to keep them on edge not running flat, these two skis are really not comparible. the hellbent is more comparible to the e.p pro. and the obseths to the prophet 100, 4frnt vct, or gotama.

only if your light and a beginner/intermediate. otherwise look elsewhere.

The low tips won't effect sking in pow or crud, line elizebeths, bacons, and prophets all have fairly low tips and they are powder skis, same with salomons pocketrocket.

yeah they work all-mountain, better in soft snow then hard because of their soft flex, you will loose some carving ability being center mounted and the tips may dive some in powder you will have to lean back more depending on your weight and size ski you get. but yes they do ski groomers fine.

Ski magazine said the mantras were Utah's one ski quiver a few years ago!SKI MAGAZIE-- why would anyone take advice from them they don't even know how to get off the groomers, You sould read powder or freeskier instead. The mantra as utah's one ski quiver LOL I hope you never land switch or ski REALLY deep pow. what a joke!!!!! Why don't you just stap 2- 2x4's on your feet they would be less stiff and you would save yourself nearly 7oo bucks.

The bambo core makes the hazmat lively, poppy and light. a fun versitil ski, liberty did have problems with duribility a few years ago, but have gotten it sorted out since then. Since you don't say what model 1080 he skis (gun, foil, thruster) it's hard to say if these are right for him. they are very versitil and can do it all, if you guys tend to ski more powder then not, i would go with a wider ski. 181 would be a good size for unless he really charges hard then go 186.

I don't think the low tips has any effect in soft snow or crud, line elizibeths, bacons and prohets have low tips and they are powder skis, as was the 1st genaration salomon gun/pocket rocket.

Well they are symemetrical so you have to center mount them, if your talking about comparing these to a different park ski that is mounted 2cm back. A center mounted ski skis a lot better switch, and is more balanced when spinning off jumps, the downfall is that they don't carve as well on groomers or float as well in powder because of some tip dive, and some center mounted skis are not as stable at speed, they get squirrly.

There is two reasons they felt squirly on you 1) they are twin tips so the tail does not have the bite of a flat tail ski 2) the 177's were to small for you, twin tips ski short, so you sould be on the 183. Imo if you want to keep riding a twintip get the LINE prophet 100 in the 186cm, because of the metal in it, it skis groomers as well the mantra but floats way better in powder. and no there is not a difference in stiffness between the two sizes.

If i was you i get the guns for near free, I skied guns for 2 seasons before getting fatter powder skis, The guns are a fun off-piste powder ski that turn very quick in trees and float real well up to about knee plus depth, they are a mid-soft ski that ski groomers well as long as the snow is soft, They HATE real hard/icey conditions but are fun in softer snow, IMO if you are looking for a off-piste ski they are way better then the mantras. The mantras are STIFF and do ski groomers and crud very well, but the guns will blow them away off-piste. If you go mantra go 184 the 191 would be to much ski for you.

they are a symmetrical ski so they have to be center mounted so you will loose all-mountain performance, and being that they are a park ski they will not like speed to much, if your not using them for park 80% of the time i would look elsewhere.

You won't find a powder ski that small, take a look at the LINE PANDORA or if that is to big you will have to go with ICELANTIC, they make short fat skis for sking powder in tree's. but you sould be on longer skis for powder.

Not really comparible--- The firstblood are STIFF all mountain skis, simalar to the 4frnt msp, that ski well but will chip and fall apart on you overtime, personally i would not buy anything from nithward you will regret it over time, The el rays are a price point all mountain ski kind of like a mix between the ar6 and arv. a fun all mountain ski for the price.

I would go prophet, wider for more float in powder, plus will ski the hard/ice groomers better and hold up better overtime

the brake is really to wide for these skis, take a look at the salomon Z10 instead, or if you want these you could get a smaller brake.

this would work, or better would be the line blend for less money.

no problem-- i love talking ski gear, HEY ITS SNOWING OUTSIDE---- maybe we will finally get some powder in the sierras.

look px12, best binding for the buck.