first off, I have F***ing long toes! Think Sasquatch with gollum toes, and you start to get the picture. These things edge and toe in like crazy, if you size them tight, but are good trad/crack shoes if you get them loose. IMO, you best off getting them tight, because the mythos are way better if you want a comfy shoe because they are designed with a flat, narrow toe profile they fit much more precisely in the toe box without scrunching your toes. I get them really tight, almost to the point were they are downturned, but not quite so they are prefect for thin, techy face climbing. My hiking/running shoe size is 14, and i started off with these in a 45, but used them for a month and they stretched too much for hard face climbing (their intended use in my case) but they were very comfortable and climbed thin cracks very well, but were still painfully for hands. I ended up returning them(with backcountry's amazing return policy) and getting a size 44, which was living hell to break in and are still pretty uncomfortable, but are prefect for 5.12+ single pitch face/slab edging. It was a pretty drastic downsize, but think it works mostly because of how how long my toes are and therefore how much they bend, maybe? anyways, they stretch a lot and are edging machines. work well on overhung terrain, but something with a more downturned toe would probably do the job better. great shoe for vert, and I highly recommend them.