Sure they're 20K rated but that doesn't matter much when they rip. The thermal bottoms ripped at the waistband after the first time I wore them. The pants themselves also ripped the first time I wore them. I traded in my Smarty Command Pants when these went on sale because I thought they would be higher quality. I was wrong. I love 686 and I find their stuff to be super functional and they fit great, especially if you have a big waistline or like to you rock the baggy look. All in all if you are thinking of buying these, don't. Get the smarty command pants, they cost less, they have more pockets, they are totally waterproof enough for almost any condition, and most importantly, they are way more durable.