Most of the time a leather climbing shoes dont stretch alot

Oteyj, you're right about leather's stretch compared to synthetic, leather usually stretches a lot more. In my experience, these shoes stretch somewhere between a half and a full Euro size. I feel they've stretched more than my pair of testarossas, but I can't compare to the cobras or solutions as I've never worn them. My rule of thumb for leather shoes has always been, figure out the size in the store that feels the way you'd like them to feel *after* break-in, then go half a size down from that. This strategy worked out well for me in the Pythons. Hopefully this helps give you an idea of how they'll break in.